Thinking about escaping the rat race for a few days, I was idily visiting a few Spanish Tourism websites about the northwest coast. Now here’s a funny thing – all the “official” tourism websites for Galicia come up in that strange dialect of Castellano they call “Galego”. And to make sense of what they’re saying, you have to click the “translate to Spanish” button.
Why? I’m going there on holiday, so of course I don’t speak Galego. It’s just annoying. And petty. And just for that I think I’ll go to the Basque country. Who put their website in Spanish, ironically enough.
NOTE 20/08: After a record 115 comments, I’ve had a thought! Read it.
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#1 by Manu74 at August 19th, 2008
David, ya que entendemos castellano, permíteme usarlo (no puedo redactarlo tan bien en inglés)
El gallego es uno de los cuatro idiomas oficiales en España, junto con el catalán, el euskera y evidentemente el castellano.
Como puedes apreciar, descerebrados existen en todos los países. En este blog se demuestra en parte tu ignorancia con la frase “Eh? Galician? That’s not a language!”, pero también el primitivismo reaccionario y estúpido de algún gallego que “argumenta” a base de ladridos, y encima, se cree en la posesión de la verdad por el mero hecho de soltar espuma por la boca.
Bien, la diversidad lingüística enriquece a los pueblos y a las gentes que los habitan. (tal y como comentan “Me” (vasco) o “penedo” desde su colegio internacional danés).
El problema viene, a mi entender, cuando se utiliza un idioma para darle un valor diferenciador, pero no en el sentido de ser diferente, ya que lo es, sino para excluir todo lo demás. Es decir, buscan como pretexto un idioma y una cultura para ahogar a la que cohabita con ella. Soy gallego, pero como se dice aquí soy “un can de palleiro” es decir “un mil leches”, vamos que no tengo pedigrí (padre gallego madre leonesa) y me duele ver como lo “nacional” venga de donde venga se transforma en “lo verdadero”.
Galicia tiene una entidad cultural y lingúística propia pero eso no hace que piense en ella como algo ajeno a lo demás. Es decir no concibo España sin Galicia ni Galicia sin España (lo mismo siento con Euskadi o Cataluña). Al igual que no me planteo una Europa sin Portugal, Francia o Hungría. Creo que los valores históricos, culturales y lingüísticos jamás se deben perder.
También creo que aquellos que se niegan a educar a sus hijos en el bilingüismo por haber tenido la suerte de nacer en Galicia (por ejemplo) y rechazan el castellano, están perdiendo cultura, educación y riqueza. Para todos aquellos que el “curruncho” es lo auténtico solo decir que yo me niego a empobrecer a los míos.
Un saludo.
#2 by Jose_ at August 19th, 2008
Galician is a language, so it´s completely normal that webs be in this language. Cómo se puede ser tan corto!!!
#3 by Alex at August 19th, 2008
“que che dean polo cú” means “get your ass fucked”
si entiendes castellano y te hablan en gallego, entenderás mejor que si te hablan en euskera / if you understand spanish, and anyone speaks you in galician, you’ll understand better than euskera.
#4 by RESUCITAR A FRANCO ES UNA MALA IDEA at August 19th, 2008
Manu74:
Y que pasa con los españoles que emigrando a los Païssos Catalans, Euskal Herria o Galiza se niegan a aprender o a que sus hijos aprendan la lengua en cuestión??? Eso no es riqueza cultural?… Luego con los emigrantes africanos bien que nos quejamos que si no se adaptan, que si viven en guettos…
Y que me dices de la patraña de ‘manifiesto por la lengua castellana’ que circulaba hace unos meses???… Eso no es querer imponer!
Y de los mayores que ni siquiera hablan el castellano porque toda su vida han vivido en otra lengua… Yo conozco incluso gente en Aragón que sigue hablando “Fabla” y apenas entienden el castellano…
PERO VAMOS A VER, QUE SE PUEDE ESPERAR DE UN “HIJO DE LA GRAN BRETAÑA” QUE CADA NOCHE ANTES DE IR A DORMIR LEE UN POQUITO DE http://www.davidjackson.info/?s=franco
Por cierto, pa los que hablan de NACIONALISMOS: que les pregunten a los CENTRO y SUD AMERICANOS POR EL NACIONALISMO ESPAÑOL E INGLÉS…
#5 by Roberto at August 19th, 2008
El gallego es una lengua registrada históricamente desde el siglo XIII…
Los políticos, que tú dices nos manipulan para usarlo a favor del nacionalismo, no son NADA en la historia del gallego.. Aquí se habla gallego desde antes de que existan los “políticos”.
Eres un ignorante y un sobrado XDDDD
#6 by Asturiana at August 19th, 2008
David Jackson, me alegro de que finalmente hayas decidio visitar Galicia. Supongo que estarás disfrutando una tierra maravillosa, tan maravillosa como todas las tierras del mundo. Pues lo maravilloso no esta sólo en ellas, esta en conocerlas.
Sólo decirte que la próxima vez que encuentres una pequeña dificultad a la hora de visitar una región no nos juzgues tan mal, esa página fue echa por una persona y probablemente por alguna razón la puso en gallego.
En galicia se hacen muchas paginas en Gallego, y en Asturias en Bable, y en Euskadi en Euskera… ¿es un interés político?, la mayoria de la veces, no.
Simplemente nos gusta verlo así, nos resulta bonito. Y a nosotros, tan acostumbrados a tener que buscarnos la vida fuera de nuestra región; cuando buscamos informacion sobre nuestra tierra y la encontramos escrita en el idioma que nos hablaba nuestra madre, bueno… algo pequeño se nos enternece dentro.
A los de fuera os basta con apretar un botón para que os lo traduzca… creo que vale la pena ese pequeño esfuerzo.
La próxima vez no busques intereses politicos donde probablemente no los hay. La mayoría de los ciudadanos normales no somos tan complejos, y la mayoría de los politicos, una vez fueron ciudadanos normales.
No juzgues a Galicia, sólo disfrútala.
#7 by danimourinho at August 19th, 2008
Just one word! F U C K I N G ignorant!!!!
sorry two…..
#8 by oviver at August 19th, 2008
Eres un ignorante. Ah, me olvidaba no se te ocurra venir por aqui. No te necesitamos
#9 by oviver at August 19th, 2008
Hijo de puta ignorante
#10 by lenox at August 19th, 2008
There must be some page that monitors anything written that is critical to petty nationalisms and there must also be a shit-load of people who would rather spend all their time checking to see what outrages may have been written by the rest of the world rather than taking up the kind offer from the Andalucian girls somewhere up there in the comments.
Rather obviously, you don’t all read David’s blog normally, so there must be some weirdo up in Galicia who is continually trawling the internet looking for criticism, then posting it on some dorky website… which you lot seem to be checking every hour or two.
Get a life. Go outside! Have a smoke or a beer or something. Look at the girls!
In the rest of Spain, we couldn’t care less what language you speak, but we think that you should be a bit more concerned not to be isolated by cheap politicians (for your own sake).
Goddamn it, we worry about you!
#11 by Alex at August 19th, 2008
Unfortunately our (still common) country, Spain, has some wounds which nowadays certain people are protecting from healing. We should not forget where we do come and instead of arising our differences, enjoy our common features.
The argument of a different, independent, culture cannot be based on a language. A gallego speaking spanish is not a real gallego? Now the rest of local politicians are rubbing their hands together searching for a language spoken once in that territory in order to ask for a nationality, and therefore for power.
Communication should be our goal, and unfortunately if everybody goes for a different language, dialect, slang… instead of going forward we would go backwards to a kind of Babel society were no one understands each other and it is all mumbo jumbo…
It is a game we play, but rules are not ours, they are carefully planned and given from local governments; we just follow their guidelines and repeat their proclamations. You can read papers, books, search the internet… but it is needed a bit of your own work to assimilate all and have your opinion – I know it is hard work since it requires you to read more papers than your favourite newspaper and sort out what YOU think from what OTHERS want you to think (as you may know already, there is never just one view of the same reality, so unless you hear a few versions you won’t have a proper idea of what happens).
Why not going even to a preliminary age? Why not returning to Latin? Or even further, to the language our ancestors spoke when there were no more than some thousands of people in the Iberian Peninsula (B.C.)?
Was an idiot or a visionary the man who suggested a common language (esperanto) which can be us by all human beings to communicate? I certainly think he was a visionary.
A final question, would these regions act as they ask the Spanish government to in case of a similar demand from a part of that region? (Pontevedra demanding being a nation and asking for its own right to decide apart from Galicia, Girona from Cataluña, Guipuzcoa from Basque country… and then O Grove wanting to be a nation apart from Pontevedra, Galicia, España and Europe, all because their language is a mixture of Latin, Spanish, Galician, Portuguese, English…). Doesn’t it look like walking back the road?
It would be a pity if in a few years we have to thank english for being the only way a gallego, a vasco, a catalan and a andaluz can have a conversation, when years before they all could have communicated in spanish.
#12 by Colin Davies at August 19th, 2008
Well said, Alex.
#13 by Galego Por Collons at August 19th, 2008
Serás animal… o galego non é un dialecto… so porque algunhas webs teñan como idioma predeterminado o galego xa son só para galegos? se tanto che custa darlle a una bandeira pequeniña na parte esquerda da pantalla para que cho poña no teu moito mais ilustrado idioma de william shakespeare enton que carallo queres vir facer a Galicia???
Seguro que vir comer marisco e beber “albaritos”… vai raña-los collons por ahí…
E despois sodes os anglo-parlantes os que non traducides unha web na mais que cando queredes vender algo…
Vai ó Pais Vasco, que alí seguro que che falan castelan para que te encontres mais agusto… asi che metan unha botella de txakoli polo cu…
Agora traduce isto no google, a ver se che aparece por ahí un “octopus to the party”…
Hai que joderse…
#14 by admin at August 19th, 2008
The very few decent posts on this comment (Asturiana, Lenox, Colin, Alex, apologies if I’ve missed anyone) made me think as I pottered around Pontevedra, which by the way is a lovely little town.
I was wondering why, with the vast quantity of posts on this entry, nobody has bothered to try to contradict my original response to Axe Grinder and prove me wrong. It is all “knee jerk” reactions that don’t actually make any sense. Surely if I had made the comment about, say, Catalan, then at least somebody would have pointed out the grammatical and lexical arguments used to justify the existence of Catalan. But nobody does this with Gallego (do these arguments really exist outside of an academic setting between linguists?)
And then I twigged it. When I made my flippant comment above I fell into the age old trap of judging by quality not quantity. Rather then a language, Gallego is an ideal. A sentiment. It’s as if I ridiculed your own personal God.
People aren’t annoyed because I said it wasn’t a language, they even seem to be able to muster the willpower to even mutter proof that it is. Instead, they feel that I am attacking them, their self identity, their social cohesion and their traditional values.
Which I’m not. I’m attacking the short sighted policies setup by certain politicians to keep themselves in power and to try to form a social cohesion that benefits their regional parties instead of the large national parties. That much is clear, after several days here in this wonderful comunidad. Even the locals say so.
So if you are one of those who feel that I insulted you, and your forefathers, and your families, my apologies. I did not mean to come across that way. I still stand by my comments above; but I admit I forgot to factor in the human value, which may be what at the end of the day decides where one language ends and another begins. But again, I don’t really care if Gallego is labeled a language or not, it’s of purely academic interest to me.
Again, sorry if I came across that way. Unless you’re one of those who called me a “fascist”, in which case I hope your aunt dies in a freak yachting accident.
#15 by odeteresa at August 19th, 2008
Oh you old freak troll. No one visited your crappy blog. You should thank the Galicians for the AdSense money you’ll receive thanks to them
Franco Franco
que tiene el culo blanco
porque su mujer
lo lava con Ariel
Donha Sofia lo lava con lejia
tralaralala laralaralala
#16 by EU at August 19th, 2008
Admin,
You are not english, you are a spanish fascist dressed up.
#17 by Rui Rude at August 19th, 2008
Watch & Learn:
[admin: removed link to some brazilian video nonsense]
Well ,it’s a pity you’ve removed the link I posted to a youtube video showing people from England,Scotland,Japan,Russia and Mexico speaking in Galician…
Actually it´s funny because you said it was “brazilian nonsense”, therefore you thought they’re speaking in brazilian portuguese so maybe you’re right and the Galego it’s a dialect after all.
In fact ,there’re some linguists who consider Galician,Brazilian and Portuguese as dialects of the same language.It makes sense if you compare them:
“Olá,chamo-me David e sou Inglês” (Portuguese)
“Ola,chámome David e son Inglés” (Galician Official Spelling)
That’s “Hola,me llamo David y soy Inglés” for you.
Sorry mate, I underestimated you,actually, you’re kinda genius in linguistics . I truly think you should just try to develop your theories in a more articulate way.
Ok,try again the “brazilian video nonsense”:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=CSEK86ZhScE
#18 by Colin Davies at August 19th, 2008
David,
Thanks for the vote.
Glad you enjoyed Ponters. It certainly is a lovely place. And the people are great, whether you speak Castellano or Gallego. Nearly all of them, of course, are fluent in both and are not really bothered about what labels are attached. And some [many?] seriously resent what is being done to traditional Galego by the academicians and the politicians. I mention in my blog again today my prediction that the BNG will lose votes at the imminent elections because of the divisiveness of the language wars they have exacerbated since they entered government [on a reduced vote!]. But we will see. Perhaps I will now be the target of those who want to tell the world that someone other than them is an arsehole. As if I care.
Yes, your headline was provocative and most of the responses were truly pathetic but this is the way things are once one enters this minefield. How about posting your last message in Castellano? I believe you are completely bilingual and all your Gallego readers will be able to understand it, even if they think it is an inferior language. Albeit a sister to Gallego, which is definitely a language but also a dialect [of Latin] Or maybe of West Iberian and Galaeico-Portuguese. Or something like that.
Of course, you did make one other important initial point that has also been completely ignored. And this is that, if you want tourists, you should bend over backwards to make things easy for them, not for your fellow directors or mates on the Xunta. But very few people writing in will understand this concept, I fear.
It would surely be possible to have a web site with Gallego and Castellano on the same page. Hardly revolutionary. Even hotel brochures sometimes manage it. Not politically correct though. And, although political correctness is eschewed here [at least when it comes to racism, for example], it’s all too often embraced when it comes to language.
As you say, it’s all grist to the mill of politicians on the make. Just like ‘green taxes’ . .
#19 by Xavy at August 19th, 2008
Hi:
I have seen several post that I agree a lot with, like those of Axe Grinder and Asturiana.
But, Wow! how many comments just for not clicking a link. It is really hilarious, and I do not pretend to insult, call you ignorant nor anything other people, surely feeling insulted about the comment about Galician language.
Personally, I do not agree with your vision about nationalism. I feel myself a nationalist, and , no I do not hate spaniards, nor think about them as devil nor anything similar.
I think it was you who said that nationalism was some kind of feeling superior to other people. My position is just the opposite, I think that nationalism is a reaction against a feeling (that may be fair or not) of inferiority. It may be true that this is oportunisticly used by some nationalist parties (as in everything), but the feeling goes first.
You said that Galician is an ideal. I can’t agree with that. I do agree that nationalism may be an ideal, but Galician is a fact, is a way of communication between people of NW of the Iberic Peninsula. It may be true that just speaking Galician does not differs us from other people in Spain, but I guess that you surely have appreciated several differences between them and us (as long as there are similarities as well)
Nevertheless, I hope you to have enjoyed our (call it the best way for you: country, region, place…) and to have learnt something about our culture, as I did when I was abroad, in so different countries as Portugal, USA or UK. Open-mindness is the clue, I think. And you?
#20 by Galedon at August 20th, 2008
What about Auldreekiean, eh? Isn’t that a language, u b******?
Gonnae nae say that …
JUST GONNAE NAE
#21 by admin at August 20th, 2008
I tell you, I’m loving this. Amazing. You learn more in 10 mins here then in 10 years in uni.
#22 by admin at August 20th, 2008
BTW – You can’t post links here. It’s to stop link spam, a common problem across the web. So apologies to anybody who tried to leave a comment with a link in, and it didn’t appear. I’m trying to approve all of them, but I get about 100 spam a day so some of them just won’t appear. It’s not that I am deleting your posts, it’s just that I have better things to do then read all this crap about “bigger better viagra”. Yours will either appear in good time (I’m against censoring) or it will be deleted if a link spammer has left about 50 spams in one go. Try again later.
BTW – Nobody has taken me up on my offer of teaching me Gallego? And what in hells name in Auldreekien?
#23 by admin at August 20th, 2008
Also – Xavy. I think that in English you can defend nationalism (social cohesion – being proud of ones local community) versus Nationalism (Nazis).
#24 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
Auldreekian.
I suspect it’s the Scottish version of English.
#25 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
Xavy,
I think you would be a Galicianist [Galleguista] in the set of definitions I had in my blog this week. As David says, no one could possibly have any objection to this attitude.
Thank-you for showing others how to disagree and be polite at the same time.
#26 by Me at August 20th, 2008
@Colin.. the label “Galicianist” is as artificial as the label “nationalist”. As I said on a previous comment, everyone is nationalist. The problem is that the nationalist who defend the idea of a already officially established nation call themselves “patriots” trying to stand on a higher moral ground.
But, trying to simplify things, even when that is a risky business to do, let’s call “nationalist” to the members of the so called in Spain “peripherical nationalism”. Within them there is every kind of people, no doubt about it. But for most of them being nationalist is not about being against Spain or considering themselves better than any other inhabitant of the country. It is about being able to get recognition for what they feel they are and being able to decide their future with the people they feel is part of their community. And yes, I have use the verb “feel” twice on purpose. Because at the end everything is a question of feelings.
Because, to my point of view, is also a question of feelings the reason why some Spaniards react so violently to the idea that some people in the country don’t want to be part of it anymore. They don’t give a damn about the area itself, probably they haven’t even been there in their whole life. It is because it hurts them that some other people don’t want to be part of the same country they are.
Think of it as a dropping your gf. Maybe you have been considering dropping her for a while but you don’t find the way to do it or the occassion didn’t come up. And then when you are about to do it, she comes and tell you that SHE wants to break up with you. Damn!, deep inside you also wanted it but still you will be hurt.
Anyhow, we won’t certainly agree on anything here nor I will manage to explain this kind of things to a Briton established in Spain.
But one thing is clear, the title of this post is clearly and unnecessarily offensive.
#27 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
@Me
I’m not sure who ‘we’ is in this sentence – Everyone involved or just you and me.
As it happens, I do agree with you on several points. And I don’t know why you are so pessimistic about explaining things to a Brit living in Spain. Especially English people who might have views – one way or another – on Scotland leaving the UK.
Some English people are, in fact, trying to push Scotland out of the Union, which I doubt is the case in spin of the BC, Cataluña and/or Galicia.
You say everyone is a nationalist but I guess those Brits/Spaniards who don’t give a damn what happens to the constituent parts of their current state could be described as non-nationalists. I’m sure they exist. Possibly called anarchists.
BTW – with the gf analogy, you are confusing me with my elder daughter . . . . Being more pragmatic, if I’d left things so long, I’d expect her to realise the relationship was dead and so end it herself. It’s called the chicken’s way out.
#28 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
which I doubt is the case in Spain with the BC, Cataluña and/or Galicia.
#29 by Me at August 20th, 2008
‘We’ is basically everyone involved. This is an ooooold discussion. Have had it once and again for years. And this is a topic difficult and complicated enough to discuss in person, to do it in a message board in Internet, mostly pointless. Some people is reasonable and try to view the things from a different perspective, true enough, but most just come to shout their own point of view without actually listening what other people might have to say.
I am pessimistic about explaining this to a Brit living in Spain, yes. I am because I picture myself on the opposite situation. I imagine myself as a foreigner living in England. Sure I can speak English good enough to read the press and interact with the locals (or so I think) but I will always be and alien in that society, difficult for me to understand its idiosyncracies no matter how well I try to blend in.
As I see it, it is even difficult for a local to understand the problem correctly because usually there is a lot of misinformation due to the press and its partisan role. Coming back to the case we were discussing, the linguistic policies in Galician. Do you really believe that someone, brit, Spaniard, whatever, living in Almeria do actually have enough information to make an informed judgment?. (Spanish) National press will always, and truly always, only publishes the most stupid ideas any nationalist might have. And even then they will put them as out of context as possible to make them look even worse. And you know what is the worst?: people love that they do it. The press quality level in is Spain is lame, really lame.
And regarding my analogy. Substitute gf for wife and my point is still stronger. You might want to divorce your wife, but still if she is the one taking the first step it will probably hurt you more than if you were the one taking it. No matter how convinced you are that that’s the right thing to do. But the point I try to make is that this, at the end, is also about feelings not only about pragmatism.
#30 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
@Me
Excellent points. I will ponder them during my siesta – what Steinbeck called the Committee of Sleep – and write again later.
I do like to think that a Brit living in Galicia would have a better grasp than a Brit living outside Galicia. After all, Axe Grinder is a Brit and I suspect he lives in the UK. Despite this, his views must be welcome to most, if not all, Gallegos. Though you may be the exception.
I shall have to ask my Spanish-born, half-Gallego, half Brit [ex] stepson what he thinks of it all. He is very politicised.
More anon.
#31 by Colin Davies at August 20th, 2008
@Me
Well, I am refreshed by my siesta and have re-read your last comment. I can’t disagree with any of your points, one by one. But, overall, I still think you are being pessimistic to believe that no one from outside a ‘nationalistic’ area can understand what goes on there. Perhaps it is all to do with your fundamental view that it’s all about feelings which can only be experienced by a native of the area who has lived there all his/her life. I don’t imagine you feel a Gallego born of emigrant parents in Buenos Aries could understand things either.
So experience, rational thought and discussion/argument won’t be enough to bring you to the required [mystical?] state.
#32 by admin at August 20th, 2008
I’d just like to bring Axe Grinders attention to the post in this blog (nothing to do with me, honest, I just want to wind him up again as he’s funny when incoherent with rage)>
http://spanishshilling.blogspot.com/2008/08/future-is-mine-im-pretty-sure-he-said.html
#33 by Me at August 20th, 2008
@Colin
Either I haven’t expressed myself properly or you misunderstood me, either way I will try to make myself more clear within what this format allows for. To arrive to my point I should write a complete essay for which I lack both the skill and the time.
I do believe that an outsider can move to a ‘nationalistic’ area and understand and even take as its own the feeling. What I don’t think is that an outsider is able from _outside_ the area to grasp all the necessary points of view to understand it. Of course, I have to generalize concepts, and there is always room for specific cases.
You and I are different persons with a different background (I am basque, 32). We could move to the same place and still perceive the reality of that place differently. You could move to Galicia (as it seems you had) and after some time you could feel more brit than ever, feel galician, spanish or even a combination of all of those. Why not?. That’s for you to feel not for me to judge. Whatever you passport says at the end is irrelevant.
But I certainly don’t believe that a brit living in Almeria can understand it in the same way that I don’t think I could understand how a Scottish guy would think about GB by me living in London. If I move to Scotland maybe, or maybe not, I could understand. Everyone has the right to talk about whatever they want. A different thing is whether is useful talk or nonsense chatter.
If you feel I am fundamentalistic maybe I have failed in communicating properly, I think I am not, but maybe I lack the proper perspective. I personally believe that there is only a key factor in all this: respect. Had we all a little bit more of this and then all the discussion would be unnecessary. But this, respect, is a rare commodity as you can see in this post, starting on the title and following in some of the comments.
I would love to depart about this with a cold beer and plenty of time but I am afraid that’s far from Internet’s capabilities. Just to summarize my ideas in a simplistic way (and this doesn’t go specifically to you): feel whatever you want to feel, but don’t tell the others that the way they feel is stupid. Far less if you lack enough information to understand their stance.
Thanks for your time and the relaxed debate.
#34 by admin at August 20th, 2008
@Me;
First of all allow me to compliment you on your wonderful grasp of the English language.
As I said before, maybe I didn’t take into account the “nationalist” (Nationalist?) feeling that underlies the many furious comments on this posting.
Why?
Not, I feel, because I am a “Brit” living in Almeria. I have lived there since I was 8; my gf is a local, 95% of my friends from childhood are locals.
But because I, as a person, simply feel that this level of local nationalistic feelings are tonto. Yes, I am proud of where I live, I like it to be clean and tidy, and I take interest in local affairs. And were it invaded then I would probably up arms along with everybody else to defend it to the death.
But this type of self belief, of “belonging” on so many different levels (local, regional, national, european) is, to me, academic and unreal. And it’s because I’m 100% from the centre, Andalucia does not have any real culture of “nationalism” and nor does England.
I don’t want a particular flag flying over the town hall, or a certain type of mentality making the laws. I want a stable economy, a clean and pleasant place to live and friendly people around me. I don’t care if they speak English, Castellano, Basque, Gallego, French, Arab, Russian, whatever, as long as we all rub by and get on with life.
And I can no more understand how these people feel then I can understand why people believe in a god. Yes, I can analyse the feelings, the sentiments, the logic behind it – but that secret personal spark of belief eludes me.
#35 by Galedon at August 21st, 2008
“I don’t care if they speak English, Castellano, Basque, Gallego, French, Arab, Russian, whatever, as long as we all rub by and get on with life.”
If so then why did u kick such a fuss about the website written in Galician? Is it because your tolerance goes as far as the spoken word, but when it comes to the written thing we all have to use the same language (ie, English in UK, Castilian Spanish in Spain)?
#36 by Colin Davies at August 21st, 2008
@Me
I take all your points, especially about the internet being a poor substitute for verbal discussion over a few beers.
BTW – I think ‘fundamental’ may have been a false friend here. In my use of it, I just meant ‘basic’, not the Spanish meaning of ‘extreme’.
Best wishes. Contact me if you come to Galicia for the beers. colindavies@terra.es
@Galedon
I believe David’s fundamental/basic point is that having the first page in Gallego was a reflection of:-
1. Nationalists politics, which he dislikes, and
2. A failure to recognise that most people accessing the site were likely to be non-Galicians. Therefore, it’s good business practice to reflect this. and not just by having a button to click for a translation. As I’ve already said, it would surely be possible to have the page in both Gallego and Castellano. David’s view, I believe, is that it is nationalist politics which prevents this, not just a desire to promote the local language.
Yes, his first post was [very] provocative – showing his irritation – but I don’t believe he has anything at all against Gallego. Nor its promotion – in sensible ways – in Galicia. Then it all comes down to what is ’sensible’. And polite. If you have a lot of Spanish visitors to Galicia, it is arguable that it is both sensible and polite to put the road signs in both languages, as is done elsewhere in the world. But nationalist politics here [and in Cataluña?) prevent this. David objects to this. And so do I, despite seeing myself as a Galleguista.
BTW – As you probably know, ’sensible’ means ‘rational’ in English. another false friend
#37 by Colin Davies at August 21st, 2008
@ Rui Rude
You say that ‘e’ is the official [Academy?] spelling for ‘I’.
I think I’ve only ever heard/seen ‘eu’, which is confirmed by this [Vigo] dictionary.
e and é are, I believe, ‘and’ and ‘is’, respectively.
If I am right, what is the official status of ‘eu’?
#38 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
@ Colin Davis
“Nor its promotion – in sensible ways – in Galicia.”
What do you mean by sensitive ways? Something like allowing non Galician speakers to keep all the reins of powers in their own hands, as it has always been the case in Galicia? By the way, did you know that those who wrote the infamous site in Galician are Spanish speakers, and only part time Galician (poor) speakers, when it suits them?
“If you have a lot of Spanish visitors to Galicia, it is arguable that it is both sensible and polite to put the road signs in both languages, as is done elsewhere in the world.”
Well, I say that if you have a lot of Galician visitors (as you do) to, let’s say, Madrid, it is arguable that it is both sensible and polite to put the road signs in both languages, Spanish and Galician. However, this is not happening, all signs are in Spanish!
Do we have double standards here?
By the way, I don’t doubt you are “galleguista”.
#39 by admin at August 21st, 2008
@galedon
Sorry, that’s a false argument. Because then Madrid would have to put the signs in Castellano, Gallego, Catalan, Eusquera, Valenciano, etc and they would be unreadable. Communication would break down.
Besides which, the official language of Spain is Castellano. Everybody in Spain speaks Castellano, no matter where you’re from. But very few out of the whole speak all the other languages. Follow your argument and we end up being unable to travel from one end of the country to the other.
So, when the tourist officials decided to put the site first in Gallego, then they took a decision to exclude the rest of Spain. They said sorry buddy, but it’s Gallegos first, you lot second. Which is not the attitude you expect from the official tourist body of Galicia.
#40 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
@admin
“According to Free Tibet Campaign, the Chinese authorities occupying Tibet are making life impossible for Tibetans who are not fluent in Mandarin Chinese by passing laws to minimise teaching of Tibetan in schools and by replacing Tibetan language with Chinese language in many spheres of public life.”
http://www.freetibet.org/newsmedia/report-reveals-determined-chinese-assault-tibetan-language
Now, you change in that paragraph Tibet and Tibetan for Galicia and Galician and then China and Chinese by Spain and Spanish and you get the picture of what has been going on in Galicia for the las half a century.
Leaving apart the marketing “stunt” of the oficial self-governing bodies in Galicia (in collusion with the centralist government, which by allowing that kind of “cosmetics” obtains much more in terms of securing the control over Galicia), my argument is only valid and true if you believe in the rights of peoples and cultures, being Tibetan, Wesh or Galician …
#41 by Erin at August 21st, 2008
admin said:
“Sorry, that’s a false argument. Because then Madrid would have to put the signs in Castellano, Gallego, Catalan, Eusquera, Valenciano, etc and they would be unreadable. Communication would break down.”
Surely there is not retranca in that statement at all, so, take a look at this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nOtD35Aes6E/SK1d_hyNFGI/AAAAAAAAAAY/1UV9_UPc5tc/s1600-h/PA130036.JPG
It is then a question of respect; you claim respect to the majorities, while the minorities’ claim is seen as “radicalism”, “nationalism”, “extremism” and some other -ism…. And it is funny, somehow, because Galician speakers are not a minority in Galicia, though they feel so… Do not you wonder why?
#42 by Colin Davies at August 21st, 2008
@Galardon
Firstly, I tried to make it clear that the English ’sensible’ does not equal the Spanish ’sensible’ = ’sensitive’ in English. But you still use ’sensitive’ in your question to me.
Secondly, are Touriño, Quintana and the previous BNG President [Beira?] all non-Galego speakers? They seem to use nothing else to me. But perhaps you think they use the ‘wrong’ Galego. I know the mayors of Pontevedra and Poio only speak Galego but, again, it might be the wrong sort.
I’m afraid you seem to suffer from 2 of the things that make nationalists so unconvincing:-
1. A sense of victimhood and resentment, and
2. A belief that Galicia is the equal of Spain and that Gallego is equal in status and importance to Spanish.
I’m afraid they’re not. Galicia is a region of Spain and, if you want it to be an independent nation, you had better found a party different from the BNG and try to convince Galicians that this is what they want/need. Until this happens – if ever – you might be better advised to accept current realities.
Additionally, while Gallego is a co-official language here, is it not the language of the Spanish state, to which Galicia belongs. As David has said, it is impractical – if not silly – to suggest that all the regional languages are used outside the regions, or even just in Madrid.
If you do start a new party, then you – as the president – can presumably check the language skills of everyone who wants to join so that only those who speak the right Galego can be members. A Castrapo-free party. That would be impressive.
#43 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
Hey buddies, where is my previous comment?
Has the olympic games committee or the chinese embassy objected and censured it??!!
#44 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
Censor this:
FREEDOM FOR TIBET
#45 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
@ Coleen Davies
I wrongly used “sensitive” once, and “sensible” twice (once citing yourself), so I am sure you know what I mean. Thank you for noting this, but I am sure you too slip now and again the wrong word (in English, never mind Spanish).
And now, I do have to correct you, because you are using the word “nation” and “nationalist” when I have not. I am talking about human rights, peoples’ rights and cultural rights.
So, let’s see your true colours, buddy:
Do the Tibetan people have the right to use their language in school, in the public life, etc? Do they have the right to name their place names in Tibetan? Do the have the right to write sign roads in Tibetan?
#46 by Colin Davies at August 21st, 2008
@ Galedon
I’m afraid you’ve completely lost me. Rhetorically, are we to put the Galicians and the Tibetans in the same box as victims of some murderous, imperialist oppressor? I guess so.
And I guess your mis-spelling of my name is a deliberate – and juvenile – mistake. Hilarious.
Adios.
#47 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
@ Colin Davis
Oh, sorry for my juvenile mistake, my apologies, I think you had one too.
Have I completely lost you? Really? I dont think so. In fact, your answer is well worth of a truly Galician: always answer with another question. But never mind, there is always a second chance, isn’t there?:
So, let’s see your true colours, buddy:
1. Do the Tibetan people have the right to use their language in school, in the public life, etc?
2. Do they have the right to name their place names in Tibetan?
3. Do they have the right to write sign roads in Tibetan?
#48 by Erin at August 21st, 2008
1. Do the Tibetan people have the right to use their language in school, in the public life, etc?
Yes
2. Do they have the right to name their place names in Tibetan?
Yes, and Mandarin Chinese
3. Do they have the right to write sign roads in Tibetan?
Yes, with Mandarin Chinese and the Latin script
#49 by lenox at August 21st, 2008
I think that we all feel for the Tibetans, conquered by the Maoists in 1952. Terrible.
What’s that got to do with Galicia?
By the way – who is the Galician version of the Dali Lama?
#50 by galedon at August 21st, 2008
@ Erin
If they have these three fundamental rights, why is the Chinese government intentionally and systematically undermining them?:
http://www.freetibet.org/newsmedia/report-reveals-determined-chinese-assault-tibetan-language
“According to Free Tibet Campaign, the Chinese authorities occupying Tibet are making life impossible for Tibetans who are not fluent in Mandarin Chinese by passing laws to minimise teaching of Tibetan in schools and by replacing Tibetan language with Chinese language in many spheres of public life.”
“Anne Holmes, campaign manager of Free Tibet Campaign, said: “To further its goal of making Mandarin the lingua franca of Tibet, the authorities are encouraging mass migration by Han Chinese who have no need or desire to learn Tibetan. Now Tibetan parents must choose between their unique culture and their children’s future.”
“Norman Baker MP, a member of the UK All Party Parliamentary Group for Tibet, endorsed this call, saying: “The Chinese government are following a deliberate policy of extinguishing all that is Tibetan, including their own language in their own country. It may be obvious, but Tibetan should be the official language of Tibet. The world must act. Time is running out for Tibet.”
http://www.freetibet.org/files/Forked(4).pdf
@ lenox
“What’s that got to do with Galicia?”
Well, I don’t know, perhaps you can tell me.
@ Colin Davies
So, let’s see your true colours, buddy:
1. Do the Tibetan people have the right to use their language in school, in the public life, etc?
2. Do they have the right to name their place names in Tibetan?
3. Do they have the right to write sign roads in Tibetan?