DavidJackson.info

Shame. Most people here are completely bilingual but prefer to speak in Castellano. You would have zilch problems, despite the impression given by the web pages.

Having just looked at this site I see that it’s available in 9 different languages, including English and Spanish which demonstrates considerable effort to make the site accessible to as many people as possible. A very large proportion (if not the majority) of visitors to Galicia are people of Galician descent — it is therefore logical that the default page on this site would be in the language of Galicia, rather than in Spanish.

Maybe it is poor marketing, in which case it would make more sense if it were in English as the default, either way, that does not give you licence to dismiss the Galician language as “not being a proper language”. Take a look at Visitwales.org and it’s much the same thing — you have to select your langauge before you go any further and both Welsh and Catalan are options (neither of which are perhaps proper languages in your eyes).

You clearly do not have any understanding of the history of Galician language (in speech, print, song etc), which predates the Portuguese language and has existed alongside Portuguese for 700 years, (since Portuguese independence) and Spanish for over 1500 years.

Galician is no more a dialect of Latin than Portuguese, Spanish or Romanian are, and to suggest that it is a dialect of Spanish is as ridiculous as saying that Dutch is a dialect of English.

You clearly don’t appreciate any culture that doesn’t pertain to a major world language or colonial power, English and maybe Spanish. Or maybe you simply don’t appreciate any culture at all, which would explain why you live in the stink hole of Spain.

You clearly don’t know the difference between a language and a dialect, and I not prepared to waste my time explaining the differences to you or justifying the already founded, officially recognised (by millions of people and institutions) and historically documented existence of Galician as a bona fide language. Maybe you should read up some basic text books on linguistics before offending masses of people just because they prefer not to speak Spanish or English as their main language.

As for “living in the past”, I think your attitude is more antiquated, given it’s more in line with that of the Victorians who wanted the whole world to speak English (to them Indians just barked rather than spoke a language) or the Nazis who would have had you speaking German instead of your English “dialect” had they have won the war. Lies? Deceit? Not sure what you’re talking about (maybe it’s the sunstroke), but you have already proved that you are a twat so I’ll put it down to that.

Hey, guys.

If you go to any one of various sites about the distinction between language and dialect, it will tell you it’s rather pointless/academic. Every language is a dialect of an earlier one. It’s all to do with politics. Armies and navies, as they say. Or where you are sitting. Or – as I said years ago on the issue of whether Gallego is a dialect of Portuguese or vice versa – on which side of the Miño/Minho you are standing.

I have a lot of views about Galician Nationalism and the politicisation of language here but I couldn’t care less whether you can label Gallego a real language or not. In practice, it doesn’t make a whit of difference to what is being done – rightly or wrongly – in real life. And it just clouds the issue to argue about a pointless distinction. Or distinctions, As far as I know – and have reported – there are several different Gallegos, the least spoken being the one theorised about by the Galician Royal Academy. And the next least spoken being that taught in schools as standard Gallego. for which we have to thank the transformation of ‘gracias’ into ‘grazas’, for example.
Pure politics.

But, as I say, there are more useful things to get in a lather about . . . .

First, what Collin says above is correct. All languages are dialects but NOT all dialects are languages. What you write suggests your understanding of a dialect to be “not a proper language” — Galician is as much a dialect as Spanish or English, but no more “not a proper language” than either. It is also arguably though also a dialect of Portuguese, but only in the same way that Swedish is could be said to be a dialect of Danish.

Of course, nationalism is an important factor, but it’s not just Galician nationalists that stick their feet in. If it wasn’t for Spanish nationalists, Galician would have a spelling system much more like that of Portuguese (e.g. nh and lh instead of ñ and ll) and would possibly even have been officially recognised as a form of the Portuguese language.

Colin–three forms of Galician? That’s far fewer than the number of variants of English, Spanish or most other languages I could name (and different English spelling systems for that matter). Although, the Galician academy does seem to be almost as out of touch as the French academy.

Second, David, I’m not sure how I’m trying to stir up nationalist sentiments, when you’re the one dismissing one of the main components of a common culture shared by about 3 million people. It’s attitudes like that; intolerance, a view that smaller cultures should be subservient to larger nation state cultures; or that someone is more backward or stupid simply based on what language they speak that are the true roots of extremist nationalism — I wonder if the hatred the murdering British soilders felt during the Crooke Park masacre was driven by the thought that Gaelic football “isn’t proper football”?

Your comment about the Galician is an incredible oversight for someone living in Spain (you’ll see what I mean if you look at the reaction to similar comments made by a Deportivo footballer about the Galician and Catalan languages: http://chuza.org/historia/sergio-xogador-do-deportivo-o-galego-e-un-dialecto-igual-ca-o-catalan-2/ ).

Third, no I am not a member of the Cornish nationalist front if there is one (this would be as excentric as being an Andalucian nationalist and wouldn’t make much sense as a Londoner); I have enough friends; like to get into a lather about more things; but don’t give a toss about the economy until I start getting poorer.

My congratulations to everyone for not only calming down but providing fascinating data and views. More please.

I do, though, disagree that having 3 [actually at least 5] different forms of Gallego in little Galicia is equivalent to have different forms of English emerging on a multi-billion world stage.

I can 100% sympathise with Galleguistas and what I call [small n]nationalists who want to promote their language and culture. But I reject the right of the [large n]Nationalist who don’t have the courage to call for secession to take this to the point of forcing it on us and suppressing our use of Spanish simply because we live in that part of Spain called Galicia. I don’t think they have either the legal or moral right to do this. In this it is no different from what Franco did.

Now, if they demanded and got succession from Spain, things would be very different and they could do whatever the Galician population accepted. But they are not going to do this, are they, as it would cost them votes and they would lose what power they currently have. In other words, they sell their soul for a mess of pottage, knowing full well that most Gallegos are afraid of losing the ’solidarity’ of the folk whose language the BNG is trying to suppress with its Orwellian Language Normalisation program. Which, of course, they dress up as something which it isn’t.

Lenox: That, in fact, is the aspiration of the true Nationalists – viz. that the kids are totally fluent in Gallego and English so that they can operate well both locally and internationally, though not necessarily in, say, Castile. They would know Spanish about as well as an average 16 year British kid knows a language studied for O level. They think this would be no bad thing as they operate from a basis of resentment that Spanish was ever allowed to gain the strength it did in ‘Galiza’. To them it counts for little that their employment prospects in the rest of Spain would be minimal. As one said ‘The language and culture are more important than economics’. Which is an easy view for, say, a young man/woman living at his/her parents’ expense. Not so easy when you need employment and your English has to compete with that of many, many others outside Spain.

Actually, I’m beginning to despise the BNG for the dishonesty of it all. Nice individuals as they are.

Sorry, I meant to say “Conversely, the Nationalists, who you are trying to taint as wanting to eradicate SPANISH”

David,

I forgot to answer your response — there are a few inaccuracies and facts that you have not fully researched:

“However, I still fell that you’re making a mistake comparing “three or more variants of Gallego” to the different spelling of English or Spanish (Castellano). English has many dialects because different English speakers from across the world have evolved their form of the language.”

– The distance from Liverpool to Manchester or Manchester to Leeds, is less than the distance from Vigo to Coruña, yet there is far greater variation in the English that is spoken in these places.

“While Gallego has been around for a long time, it was not properly “pinned down” in linguistic terms (spelling, grammar, vocabulary)”

– Except for grammar, this is largely true, although disagreement over spelling and vocabulary are due to 500 years of not having no official status in society, and in the case of vocabulary, regional variations that you’d find with any language.

“until 1906, with the formation of the “Real Academia Gallega” and the first dictionaries. This was due to the strong nationalist influence that raged across Spain after the final collapse of its empire and the war with the US, in which in an attempt to define themselves intellectuals and politicians looked inwards, back to their roots, rather then towards the failed (as it appeared at that moment) Spanish kingdom.”

–This is possibly a factor, but the Rexurdimento of the mid-1800s long predates the loss of the Spanish-American war in 1898 and follows similar movements in the British Isles and other parts of Europe.

“Until then, it was mainly an oral language (ignoring the 19th century poets, who used the language spoken by their relatives or friends, and earlier works of the 17th century, which were also poetical in nature, but which rarely manage to agree on spelling).”

–This ignores the whole of the period up until the early 15th century, during which Galician was effectively the sole language of Galicia, and enjoyed the same status as Spanish in the Christian ruled parts of Castille and Portuguese in Portugal.

“Gallego evolved because a small population was cut off in the mountains and spoke their own version of Latin, but heavily influenced by the more dominant languages (Castellano, Portuguese) spoken by their neighbors. Which is why it shares so many similarities with Portuguese and Castellano, and is why it’s underlying grammatical roots are Castellano.” -

–This is mainly incorrect. Galician grammar has no “Castillian roots”, its roots, in common with those of Portuguese, are in medieval Galician-Portuguese. Galician evolved in parallel alongside Portuguese, Castillian, Catalan, and with similar status during the middle ages, NOT as an offshoot of any of these. However, unlike any of these other languages (the same can be said of the Basque language), Galician was unable to spread southwards into areas conquered from the Muslims as the southern part of the Kingdom of Galicia broke away to form the tiny domaine of Portugal and was later replaced as the language of officialdom, but only during the reign of the Reyes Catolicos.

“Since Latin (or later on, Leones and Castellano) was spoken by the ruling elite in Galicia, Gallego never had the chance to take off as a written language, since all official correspondence was in the language of the elite.”

– This is only true of the 15th century onwards. Please look up the 13th century Cantares de Martin Codax, and Xoan de Cangas. And Leones? That really has not been a factor. Alfonso the Wise, although King of Leon, used Castilian and Galician (he wrote lyric in both).

–This is furthermore demonstrated by the fact that: a)there are so many forms of Gallego, despite attempts throughout the last century to unify them; — not so many, but those that exist are generally mutually intelligible.

–”As an example, I have only this week ever read anything in Gallego. But that link you sent me, as a Castellano speaker, I could read with almost no problems. Send the same link in Catalan and I’m stuffed.” — I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me with this. Although most of that text probably consisted of short comments, the same would go for a text in Portuguese. A Dutch speaker can easily read German, but so what? They are both still separate languages. As an adopted Andaluz, I would recommend you read some of Garcia Lorca’s work in Galician given that you have no problem understanding it.

“Now, the distinction as to whether or not it’s a “language” is on one level an academic one, which is strongly influenced by ones personal attitude and mentality; on another a bitter issue which concentrates not on the language but on ones own sense of identity and wellbeing. For example, I spoke last night to my Catalan brother in law (a psychiatrist and strong Catalan nationalist) and he doesn’t think it’s a language either, but agrees it has strong and elderly roots. (Most of the Andalucians I’ve spoken to just shrug, it’s irrelevant to them.) You do think it’s a language, and that’s fine, and I don’t give the proverbial caber toss, as neither of us are deciding on whether or not to fund this.”

–I’m really lost here. Why isn’t Catalan a language either? I think you’re flogging a dead horse by saying any of the four official languages of Spain is a dialect. It’s weakening the rest of your argument.

“Now, as for the nationalist part, I’m worried about the whole European economy going down the pan, but the Gallician nationalists are complaining about having to put Castellano on a street sign warning you of road works. Which is not how I want a government to work. It’s similar to Chicken Little crying about how the sky is falling. They, and it’s a common tactic from many smaller nationalist parties from across the world (not just Galicia!) are trying to divert the real issue, which is working together in a multicultural environment for the common good, to “vote for me otherwise those bastards from the capital city will steamroll over you and leave you for dead”. It’s a rallying call that anybody who speaks the language can understand.”

– The problem with this is that you’re just willing to focus on a certain part of the nationalists policy. Having looked at the BNG’s programme a couple of years ago, I can tell you that it was as extensive (and boring) as that of the PSOE or PP. And didn’t focus solely on language or other traditionally nationalist policy. I could just as easily say that the PP were only concerned with putting words to Spain’s national anthem, or wasting money on military processions to show how “grande y libre” Spain is, a somewhat more ugly form of nationalism me thinks. However, why is this a question of nationalism? Isn’t Spain’s diversity and different languages, regardless of whether they live in Girona or Cadiz, something everyone should be proud of? I know that I’m pretty proud of the fact that even though we’ve given the world the most useful language in the world, I’m just a 3 hour drive from a corner of Britain where the Welsh has survived against all the possible forces. Why can’t the Spanish think like that? Too nationalist? Too Francoist?

“To return to my original post, the politician who ordered the design of the Galicia Tourism webpage must have taken a decision to make it appear first in Gallego, not Spanish or English. If they had wanted to, they could have automatically changed the language depending on where you are connecting from, or the language your browser is in. But no, they said “Gallego!”. Unlike the more enlightened brethren along the coast. Methinks they do protest too much!”

– Maybe, but you have already wasted far more time arguing about it than you will clicking on another link — the best option would certainly have been to have it set according to your browser’s language, but I don’t really care.

The fact that you have to click the “translate to Spanish” button or similar is done on purpose. It helps to eliminate all the stupid, lazy or drunk potential tourists. If they are stupid enough not to find the button or lazy enough not to click it, they will not understand the web and they will fuck off to Marbella or Mallorca, leaving Galicia for tourists of “more quality”, that are the ones that bring money without chaos.

Nevertheless, given your total lack of culture and neurons I am surprised you finally decided to come to Galicia. What a pity!!

If you are not drunk when you come, I would like to discuss with you your theory of Galician being a dialect, based on a text you read last week and the opinions of your Catalan psychiatrist brother-in-law. We could offer you a seat in the Galician Royal Academy.

I wonder if the author is aware that it is down to our vote. Not a big deal, but feel the post and some of the opinions thrown here are just plain rude. Doesn’t surprise me since I am used to hear the same kind of stuff coming from deep inside some Spanish caves. Regards.

Galiza ceive

Althought galician nationalist party BNG are also part of the galician government you should also know that linguistics are not their competence. PSdG (Galician PSOE) is the only responsible of linguistics right now. Im pretty sure you’re much influenced by spanish reactionary press such as El Mundo. You’re invited to come and visit us, this way you can get rid of your prejudices.

What a ridiculous lesson you’re trying to run! Nobody outside the limits of “the stink hole of Spain” -as you(vosotros) politely said above- gives a shit about if Galician it’s a dialect of Spanish or a language on its own! Please stop embarrassing ourselves at foreign people eyes!

O galego non é un dialecto, é un idioma. Eres un puto subnormal.

Ti és parvo neno…

The englsh is a dialect of the german.
El inglés és un dialecto del alemán.
L’anglès és un dialecte de l’alemà.
La angla estas dialekto de la germana.
Le anglaise c’est un dialect de l’alemand.

Axe Grinder congrats for your good knowledge about galician.
I’m a galician and i find very accurate ansers.

Galego miña lingua!!

A ignorancia moi atrevidiña é.

Euskera*

No. No puedo.
Estoy harto de intentar educar a barbaros sin educación ni cultura, más allá del futbol y alcoholizados las veinticuatro horas del día en todas las costas de España.
Gentuza. Bárbaros sin ningún interés por nada que no sea beber hasta perder el sentido y, a ser posible, por el camino pelearse y destrozar todo lo que puedan.
Esa es la imagen que dais los británicos cuando os sacan como ganado de vuestro país.
Y no es ninguna excepción. Es la regla general.
No merecéis la pena.

So… Galician isn’t a language… what is it then, more like a understandable human noise?
After reading you’re post, I can’t even believe you did visit a single site neither had read a basic book about Galiza, because if you did you should know about 100% of galicians understand it, and most of them speak it all the time.
So maybe Galiza it’s not the best choice for your perfect spanglishspeaking vacations, for “oleole’s” and all that stuff you should better go to Andalucia.
By the way, are you american? (I ask it after your ridiculous historic and geographic knowledge).